Publishing Talks: David Wilk interviews poet and editor Tom Montag

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and others involved in media and technology, mostly talking about the future of publishing, books, and culture. As every media business continues to experience disruption and change, I’ve been talking with some of the people involved in our industry about how publishing might evolve as it is affected by technology and the larger context of culture and economics.

I’ve expanded this interview series to include conversations that go beyond the future of publishing. I’ve talked with editors and publishers who have been innovators and leaders in independent publishing in the past and the present, and will continue to explore the ebb and flow of writing, books, and publishing in all sorts of forms and formats, as change continues to be the one constant we can count on.

Tom Montag is a poet, critic, editor and publisher whom I have known for many years. I love his biography, which emphasizes his pure identity as a midwesterner. Unlike so many Americans, he has lived in the midwest for his entire life, and his work identifies deeply with where he lives. He does not need to declaim his role as a true poet of place.

Tom was somewhat famously the editor of Margins: A Review of Little Magazines and Small Press Books during the 1970s, was active in the Milwaukee literary scene, and was an editor and feature writer for Wisconsin’s Fox River Patriot during its heyday from 1977 to 1979. With his wife Mary, he edited and published the Wisconsin Poet’s Calendar from 1982 to 1984, which was subsequently handed to the Wisconsin Fellowship of Poets to continue.

Tom spent the better part of his work life at the family owned Ripon Community Printers in Ripon, Wisconsin. During those years, he wrote pithy sayings from a character he called Ben Zen. Four collections of the BZ poems were published between 1992 and 2000.

His memoir, Curlew: Home is about his first fourteen years spent on a farm outside Curlew, Iowa, and about his sense of loss in revisiting the community forty years later. Kissing Poetry’s Sister gathered eleven of Montag’s essays about writing and being a writer, including his long piece on creative nonfiction.

After he retired from his Ripon job, he spent five years creating “Vagabond in the Middle,” an attempt to determine what makes us middle western. He has been collecting stories from residents of twelve communities across the middle west, true stories of their families, their lives, and their connections to the places they inhabit.

Tom and I have worked together on publishing projects at Woodland Pattern in Milwaukee, and we’ve presented together there and at the Lorine Niedecker festival in Fort Atkinson, Wisconsin. Tom’s writing and editing has meant a great deal to me over the years, we are linked in so many ways, yet have such different backgrounds, and it was a great pleasure to speak to him here about his lifetime of work in writing and publishing, though to be sure, we barely scratched the surface of what we could have talked about.

SOMETIMES

Sometimes
in the weeds

a loveliness.
This moment

among all
the moments.

Rain when it’s
needed. Tom,

stop wanting
anything more.

 

MY FATHER,
holding the Y
of willow

lightly
in his hands,

walks the land.
The willow

leaps
for something

we do not
see: Here,

my father says
to the man,

drill here.

Tom is the author of many books and has edited anthologies as well. His most recent large scale collection is In This Place: Selected Poems 1982-2013.

There are two really good written interviews with Tom in the Wombwell Rainbow and the Mocking Heart Review. You can learn more about Tom and his work here and you can keep up with his prodigious output of poetry at his outstanding blog The Middle Westerner where you will regularly find him posting poems that will endure.

“Exploring the heart of the country; or, as Nancy Besonen has said, “Tom Montag is defining the character of the Midwest – one character at a time.”

Thanks Tom, for being who you are.

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Publishing Talks: David Wilk interviews Dan Blank of We Grow Media

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and folks active in media and technology, at that time, mostly talking about the future of publishing, books and culture. At the outset of this series, I was mostly interested in exploring what people were thinking about the changing economics and culture of publishing and reading.

Now, I’ve  expanded these talks to go beyond the future of publishing – in some cases, by going backwards to discuss the recent history of publishing, and in some instances, sideways into various other realms that interest me. I’ve talked with editors and publishers who have been innovators and leaders in independent publishing in the past, and into the present, and will continue to explore the ebb and flow of writing, books, and publishing in to document the cultural milieu around books, authors and publishers.

Dan Blank is an inspiring and practical thinker about books, authors and readers. We met a number of years ago, and in working with him on a project to help self publishing authors, I was impressed with his thinking and ideas for ways to help writers conceptualize marketing. I first talked to him for Publishing Talks all the way back in 2012 – you can listen to that interview here. I have continued to follow his work through his excellent email newsletter, and frequently, have been inspired by his writing, especially his view of how writers can thrive in a challenging environment. Since so much has changed in the publishing landscape over the past several years, I thought it would be valuable to talk to Dan again about his current work with writers, books, readers, and the way they are connected.

Dan did not disappoint. This interview is full of great advice for writers and anyone who is interested in connecting with audiences in today’s media-rich environment.

As Dan says about himself on his website, he “help(s) writers and creative professionals share their stories and connect with their audience.” He’s worked with hundreds of authors and many publishers as well. And he has written his own book too, making the process of writing and publishing the book part of his experience-based coaching – Be the Gateway: A Practical Guide to Sharing Your Work and Engaging an Audience.

Dan’s website, wegrowmedia.com is well worth spending some time with, and his newsletter has been a valuable source of ideas and inspiration to many.

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David Wilk interviews Bob Miller of Flatiron Books

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and people active in media and technology. At that time, some years ago, we were mostly talking about the future of publishing, books and culture, exploring what people were then thinking about the changing economics and culture of publishing and reading.

This series has expanded to go beyond the future of publishing, now engaging with the history of contemporary publishing and various other book-related subjects. I’ve talked with editors and publishers who have been innovators and leaders in a range of publishing projects, and will continue to explore the ebb and flow of writing and publishing in many forms and formats, to help document the specific cultural milieu around books, authors and publishers.

Bob Miller is currently the president and publisher of Flatiron Books, a relatively new division of Macmillan. Bob founded Hyperion for Disney in 1990 and was its president and publisher until 2008. He began his career at St. Martin’s Press and has also worked at Delacorte Press, HarperCollins, and Workman. Key titles Miller has acquired for Flatiron to date include What I Know For Sure by Oprah Winfrey, The Secret History of Twin Peaks by Mark Frost, Promise Me, Dad by Vice President Joe Biden, and in April, 2018, A Higher Loyalty by James Comey.

I thought it would be valuable to hear from Bob about his extremely successful publishing work with Flatiron and his colleagues there, and to get an understanding of what it takes to be successful in today’s commercial publishing. Bob has mastered all of the tools and strategies available to publishers, and understands better than most what it takes to continue to innovate and do well in a challenging environment. And the essential philosophy underlying the foundation of Flatiron has proved to be exceptionally strong. I hope you enjoy this conversation with Bob Miller as much as I did.

You can learn more about Flatiron Books and its current books here.

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David Wilk interviews Tony Sanfilippo of Ohio State University Press

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and others involved in media and technology, mostly talking about the future of publishing, books, and culture and have now expanded the series to include conversations that go beyond the future of publishing. I’ve talked with editors and publishers who have been innovators and leaders in independent publishing in the past and into the present, and will continue to explore the ebb and flow of writing, books, and publishing in all sorts of forms and formats, as change continues to be the one constant we can count on.

Tony Sanfilippo is director of the Ohio State University Press in Columbus, Ohio. Under his direction, the press has expanded its trade book and regional publishing programs in interesting and innovative ways, while maintaining a strong commitment to scholarly publishing.

Before joining OSU Press in 2014, Tony was at Pennsylvania State University Press, where he was marketing director and assistant director, having started there as acquisitions editor of regional titles. While at Penn State, he was actively involved with the press’s digital programs. He has also had key roles with the Association of American University Presses and The Association of American Publishers.

Tony is a graduate of Southern Illinois University, and before becoming involved in publishing, he spent more than 20 years as a trade bookseller, as co-owner and manager of Svoboda Scholarly Books in State College, Pennsylvania.

New technology continues to have a big impact on academic and scholarly publishing, and many university presses are actively engaged in exploring and applying digital technology and implementing new publication strategies. Sanfilippo devotes a significant percentage of his time on these issues, and his unusual background and broad pop culture subject interests make him a compelling subject for a Publishing Talks interview.

It was a pleasure to spend some time in a wide ranging conversation about the challenges and opportunities facing university press publishing with this very smart and interesting press director.

Here is a description of OSU Press from its website:

We specialize in literary and cultural studies (including comics, narrative theory, Victorian studies, and medieval studies), American studies, rhetoric and communication, gender and sexuality studies, and race and ethnic studies (including Black studies and Latinx studies). We also acquire books in regional studies on our Trillium imprint, creative works, on our Mad Creek imprint, and linguistics, and publish the annual winners of The Journal’s non/fiction and poetry prizes.

Among the most notable titles published by the Press are Language Files, an introductory linguistics textbook now in its 12th edition; The Centenary Edition of the Works of Nathaniel Hawthorne, the definitive 23-volume edition of the American master’s writings; The Death of Contract, a classic in legal studies; and Listen to Me Good, a moving autobiography of an Alabama midwife. The Press was the original publisher of the Helen Hooven Santmyer blockbuster “. . . And Ladies of the Club,” which is now out of print.

In addition to its books, the Press publishes a distinguished group of journals including Inks, the Journal of the Comics Studies Society, Adoption & Culture, American Periodicals, Victorians, North American Journal of Celtic Studies, and Narrative.

Visit the OSU Press website for more information about their books and programs and read a very useful post, University Press Publishing Under an Autocracy by Tony Sanfilippo at the always interesting Scholarly Kitchen.

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David Wilk interviews Russell Banks about Lillabulero magazine

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and others involved in media and technology, mostly talking about the future of publishing, books, and culture. As every media business continues to experience disruption and change, I’ve been talking with some of the people involved in our industry about how publishing might evolve as it is affected by technology and the larger context of culture and economics.

Over the past few years, the series has expanded  to include conversations on many other literary and publishing topics. I’ve talked with editors and publishers who have been innovators and leaders in independent publishing in the past and into the present, and will continue to explore the ebb and flow of writing, books, and publishing in all its forms and formats, to help document the breadth and depth of modern literary publishing.

Listeners will most likely know of Russell Banks for his powerfully written and evocative fiction. His novels include The Darling, The Sweet Hereafter, Cloudsplitter, Rule of the Bone, Affliction, Continental Drift, Searching for Survivors, Trailerpark, among others, as well as a collection of short stories, A Permanent Member of the Family.

The prolific Banks has written poems, stories, and essays that have appeared in The Boston Globe Magazine, Vanity Fair, The New York Times Book Review, Esquire, Harper’s and other magazines and journals. His most recent book is the memoir entitled Voyager.

Banks has been widely honored, having won the Ingram Merrill Award, the John Dos Passos Award, the Literature Award from the American Academy of Arts and Letters. Continental Drift and Cloudsplitter were Pulitzer Prize finalists; Affliction, Cloudsplitter and Lost Memory of Skin were PEN/Faulkner Finalists. He is also the founder and president of Cities of Refuge North America.

I think Russell Banks is among the best writers we have. I’ve been moved and challenged by his writing for a very long time. But  the main reason I wanted to talk to Russell for this Publishing Talks series is that he was the co-editor of the important literary magazine and press, Lillabulero. With poet Bill Matthews, Russell started publishing Lillabulero when they were students at UNC in Chapel Hill in 1966. That magazine was an important part of the sixties generation of literary magazines and presses, and along with its many peers and competitors helped build a new literary culture that we are still experiencing today.

In those days, mimeographs and a new generation of small offset printing presses, along with inexpensive postal rates, enabled a low cost of entry for writers and editors to reach a wide audience all over the country and to create a new community of readers that were equally hungry for new work as much as the writers themselves sought audiences. Russell and Bill were at the center of much of the creative energy that was circulating around the country at that time, and Lillabulero quickly earned a reputation for quality writing from new writers.

Bill Matthews passed away far too young, and is missed by all those who knew him and his work; I hope this conversation will help bring him wider attention. And it was a great pleasure and honor for me to have this opportunity to speak with Russell about this period in his illustrious literary career.

Bill Matthews’ son, Sebastian, interviewed Russell for the Fiction Writers Review a few years ago, and that interview is a valuable source as well, and the Paris Review interview with Banks is flat out terrific.

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David Wilk interviews Joanna Penn of The Creative Penn

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and others involved in media and technology, mostly talking about the future of publishing, books, and culture. As every media business continues to experience disruption and change, I’ve been talking with some of the people involved in our industry about how publishing might evolve as it is affected by technology and the larger context of culture and economics.

I’ve now expanded this interview series to include conversations that go beyond the future of publishing. I’ve talked with editors and publishers who have been innovators and leaders in independent publishing in the past and into the present, and will continue to explore the ebb and flow of writing, books, and publishing in all sorts of forms and formats, as change continues to be the one constant we can count on.

The rise of self publishing authors is one of the most significant elements of change in the modern publishing landscape. Technology is one element – ebooks and digital short run printing (aka print on demand) give authors access to low cost production and distribution capabilities. The internet as a disseminator of information has helped to democratize publishing skills and knowledge, and generally to drive down the costs of production for books of all kinds. Disruption among traditional publishers has also helped by creating a large pool of experienced freelancers that can provide high level publishing services at reasonable cost.

And crucially, a large group of successful do-it-yourself publishing authors and publishing professionals have become teachers and guides, assisting writers at every level of experience, of every kind of writing,  to themselves learn the ropes of what was once a somewhat esoteric set of skills and knowledge. And because change is such a prominent feature in the modern publishing environment, no author can afford to not be in a continual state of learning. The advisors, consultants and teachers who both know “how to do it” and how to keep learning have become tremendously important resources for a wide range of authors.

One of the best of the brightest of these is UK-based writer Joanna Penn. Her fantastic website, The Creative Penn, has become one of the largest of its kind in the literary world. Joanna is an award-winning, best-selling thriller writer and she writes really good nonfiction books for authors. She is now a publisher too (Curl Up Press), a speaker, and of course, an entrepreneur. She’s endlessly energetic, smart, perceptive, and gives consistently great advice. I am a regular reader of her work, and refer to it frequently on the self publishing blog I operate myself.

I could not pass up the opportunity to speak with Joanna about her work as a writer and self publishing guide. It was great fun for me, and I am sure will be for my listeners as well. Even if you never self-publish your work, it is well worth hearing what she has to say. At least for me, the time flew by, and we could easily have talked much longer. Thank you Joanna!

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David Wilk interviews Steve Clay of Granary Books

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and others involved in media and technology about the future of publishing, books, and culture. As we continue to experience disruption and change in all media businesses, I’ve been talking with some of the people involved in our industry about how publishing might evolve as our culture is affected by technology and the larger context of civilization and economics.

I’ve now expanded the series to include conversations that go beyond the future of publishing. I’ve talked with editors and publishers who have been innovators and leaders in independent publishing in the past and into the present, and will continue to explore the ebb and flow of writing, books, and publishing in all sorts of forms and formats, as change continues to be the one constant we can count on.

For the past several years, I’ve been talking to editors and publishers of independent presses about their work, including a number of important literary publishers.

Steve Clay is an old friend, who has been involved with poetry, art and publishing for about the last forty years or so. Steve is the publisher of Granary Books, through which he has done some extraordinary work with an incredible range of poets, artists and crafts people. He has been the instigator of literally hundreds of important standout works of art.

He calls himself an editor, curator, and archivist specializing in the American art and literature of the 1960s,’70s, and ’80s. Steve is also the author, with Rodney Phillips, of A Secret Location on the Lower East Side: Adventures in Writing 1960-1980 (1998) and editor, with Jerome Rothenberg, of A Book of the Book: Some Works & Projections about the Book & Writing. He lives in New York City.

But this outline of his work barely scratches the surface of Steve’s work.  In our conversation, I tried to give him the opportunity to talk broadly about the scope of his creative work. He is truly an exemplar of the powerful nexus of writing, editing, and publishing, the “making public” work so critical to art and those who make and experience it. His work is a gift I urge you to spend some time to discover and explore on your own.

A good start is to visit the Granary Books website. Then go to the absolutely essential From a Secret Location: Poetry, Little Mags, Small Presses, and transient documents from the mimeo era and beyond.

There is another useful interview with Steve conducted by the brilliant poet Bill Corbett for the Paris Review here.

When Columbia University, which purchased the Granary Books archive, opened their first exhibit from the Granary archives in 2015, Mark Dimunation, chief of the Rare Book and Special Collections Division of the Library of Congress said about Steve: “Beginning in 1985 he has concocted a mix of poets, artists, printers and craftspeople whose work defines an era and fundamentally shapes our understanding of the artists’ book.”

Enjoy!

 

 

Pre-Face image from A Secret Location on the Lower East Side: Adventures in Writing, 1960–1980 (The New York Public Library and Granary Books, 1998), based on Bernadette Mayer, Studying Hunger (New York and Bolinas, CA: Adventures in Poetry and Big Sky, 1975). Cover photograph of the author by Ed Bowes.

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David Wilk interviews Infinite Ideas publisher Richard Burton

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with industry professionals about the future of publishing, books, and culture. As we continue to experience disruption and change in all media businesses, I’ve been talking with some of the people involved in our industry about how the book business might evolve as our culture is continues to be affected by technology and macro-economic factors.

Over the years I’ve expanded this series to include conversations that go beyond the future of books and publishing. I’ve talked with editors, publishers, booksellers and others who have been innovators and leaders in independent publishing, and will continue to explore the ebb and flow of writing, books, and publishing in all sorts of forms and formats, as change continues to be the one constant we can count on.

I continue to be interested in the ways that publishers might reinvent themselves  in order to be able to succeed in a challenging sales and marketing environment. Most publishers acknowledge that the business model that worked for so many years, which relied on bookstores and other retailers to stock a wide range of books, simply does not work now that we are in the age of Amazon.

In fact, there are distinct, though perhaps short term, advantages to a consolidated market – lower cost of sales, better inventory management, and lower returns rates, principally. But having ceded direct knowledge of actual customers to intermediaries, foregoing the meaning of their brands for consumers, and working diligently to protect existing pricing models, all pose difficulties to the future business proposition for commercial publishers.

Some publishers have decided to change their models to address these concerns. One who has found a way to adapt to a changing book selling environment is Infinite Ideas, an innovative publisher based in Oxford, UK. Founded and operated by Richard Burton to publish business content, Infinite Ideas has literally reinvented itself over the past few years, and now focuses on books about wine and spirits, with a digital printing underpinning, and a strong direct to consumer and special markets focus.

Publishers and publishing observers will find my conversation with Richard to be of interest, and the thinking that led to this model may demonstrate some valuable lessons for anyone connected to books and publishing today.

Aside from having had success in publishing over an interesting and varied career, Richard has a background in literature. He holds a PhD on the early poetry of W.B. Yeats, and recently authored a significant biography of the important Northumbrian poet, Basil Bunting, A Strong Song Tows Us, which was published by Infinite Ideas in the UK and by Prospecta Press in the US.

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David Wilk interviews Hungry Minds Bookstore Founder David Unowsky

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals about the future of publishing, books, and culture. As we continue to experience disruption and change in all media businesses, I’ve been talking with some of the people involved in our industry about how the book business might evolve as our culture is continues to be affected by technology and macro-economic factors.

I’ve now expanded this series to include conversations that go beyond the future of books and publishing. I’ve talked with editors, publishers, booksellers and others who have been innovators and leaders in independent publishing, and will continue to explore the ebb and flow of writing, books, and publishing in all sorts of forms and formats, as change continues to be the one constant we can count on.

For the past several years, I’ve been talking to editors and publishers of independent presses about their work, including a number of important literary publishers. In this conversation, I am speaking with an old friend and colleague, David Unowsky, founder of the outstanding St. Paul bookstore, the Hungry Mind, which evolved into many other book related ventures, including a literary review and a successful independent press.

The store eventually sold its name to help stay in business in the face of ever increasing financial pressures, and ultimately, under its new name, Ruminator Books, closed in 2004. Which means it was in business for over 30 years, and was for most of that time an incredibly important place, not only to Twin Cities residents, but for the many writers and publishers whose work the store supported, and importantly provided an entry point into the book business for many individuals who have gone on to a wide variety of positions in the book industry.

The Hungry Mind was and remains for many, a special place, and David Unowsky was its beating heart and soul. I’m really pleased to have the chance here for David to talk about his work as a bookseller, communitarian, publisher and entrepreneur. David and “the Mind” – and all the wonderful people and books that passed through its doors –  are central to our understanding of what might eventually be considered a “golden age” of books in our country.

Jan. 12, 1994: Former President Jimmy Carter made an appearance at the Hungry Mind Bookstore in St. Paul to sign his latest book,”Turning Point: A Candidate, a State and a Nation Come of Age.” In the book, Carter describes how his first race in the pre-civil-rights South almost was taken away by a political boss.

Photo: Minneapolis Star Tribune.

Screen shot from a 1998 C-Span program about Hungry Mind

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David Wilk interviews poet and publisher Bill Mohr

Publishing Talks began as a series of conversations with book industry professionals and others involved in media and technology about the future of publishing, books, and culture. As we continue to experience disruption and change in all media businesses, I’ve been talking with some of the people involved in our industry about how publishing might evolve as our culture is affected by technology and the larger context of civilization and economics.

I’ve now expanded the series to include conversations that go beyond the future of publishing. I’ve talked with editors and publishers who have been innovators and leaders in independent publishing in the past and into the present, and will continue to explore the ebb and flow of writing, books, and publishing in all sorts of forms and formats, as change continues to be the one constant we can count on.

For the past several years, I’ve been talking to editors and publishers of independent presses about their work, including a number of important literary publishers.

Many years ago, I was introduced to the amazing poetry and writing scene in the Los Angeles area, centered in Venice Beach with the Beyond Baroque Literary Center (which was founded by poet George Drury Smith in 1968) through an old family friend, Alexandra Garrett. Surprisingly to many, Los Angeles has an amazing literary history – there’s much more there than just tinseltown. And of course Charles Bukowski and John Fante lived and worked there, John Martin’s Black Sparrow Press was born in LA, and there have been and now are thriving poetry scenes in various locales throughout the urb over the years. Doug Messerli’s Sun & Moon Press is another notable LA publisher we’ve spoken with.

There were several terrific bookstores in LA in those years, and quite a few great literary magazines and small presses over the years. One of the central individuals in the LA poetry movement of the seventies, eighties and nineties is Bill Mohr, whose magazine and press, Momentum, was a focal point for many writers in and around Los Angeles. Bill and I were friendly in those years but since lost touch, so it was a pleasure to get a chance to talk to him about Momentum for this series of interviews about the independent presses and magazines of the last half century.

Bill was born in Norfolk, Virginia, and grew up there, then moved to Los Angeles to do some acting with various small theater companies, including the Burbage Theater Ensemble. He published and edited Momentum magazine for five years, and then founded Momentum Press in the early 1980s. Between 1975 and 1988, Momentum published about 25 books including Leland Hickman’s Great Slave Lake Suite, which was one of five finalists for the Los Angeles Times book prize in 1980.

Bill also edited two important LA-focused anthologies, The Streets Inside (1978) and Poetry Loves Poetry (1985). During much of this time Bill worked as a blueprint machine operator and a typesetter, and later went to graduate school to start a new career as a scholar and professor. Mohr has been a visiting scholar at the Getty Research Institute in Los Angeles, as well as an Andrew W. Mellon Fellow at the Huntington Library in San Marino, CA. A chapter from his work-in-progress on West Coast poetry during the Cold War was included in The Sons and Daughters of Los: Culture and Community in L.A. (Temple University Press). For over 25 years he has taught creative writing in medium and minimum security prisons in Chino and the University of California, San Diego, and Idyllwild Arts, in Idyllwild, CA.

Bill is now a professor in the Department of English at California State University, Long Beach. He has a Ph.D. in Literature from the University of California, San Diego, and has taught at CSU Long Beach since 2006. His poems, prose poems and creative prose have appeared in dozens of magazines in the past 40 years, including 5 AM, Antioch Review, Beyond Baroque, Blue Collar Review, Blue Mesa Review, Caliban (On-line), Miramar, ONTHEBUS, OR, Santa Monica Review, Skidrow Penthouse, Solo Nolo, Sonora Review, Spot, Upstreet, Wormwood Review, and ZYZZYVA. His volumes of poetry include Hidden Proofs (1982); Penetralia (1984); Bittersweet Kaleidoscope (2006); and a bilingual volume published in Mexico, Pruebas Ocultas (Bonobos Editores, 2015). A CD and cassette release of spoken word was produced by Harvey Robert Kubernik and released by New Alliance Records in 1993.

This conversation was great fun for me, and I hope will be an important addition to the oral history of independent publishing over the last decades.

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